New Arena: problems and suggestions for fixing

[Sutekh137]

This is a lot like other posts, but I’m not asking for a complete overhaul — the randomness just needs to be toned down.

Earlier today I got through a battle with all strikes and birdies: SSBBSBS. As far as I could tell, my “opponent” made it through the same number of rooms as I did, as his score stopped going up when I flinged my last two birds. No matter, though, he scored 4 million to my 2.7 million, or about 48% higher than me.

OK, no big deal. Just now I had a _worse_ run: SSBBSB3 (last room took my last three birds and I didn’t even clear it. You’d think I did worse, wouldn’t you? Nope. Crushed my opponent (a 10-star win!) 2.2 million to 1 million (a 120% increase over my opponent’s score).

That’s a bit much, don’t you think? Essentially the same run of destruction (I still did decent damage with those last three birds on the second battle I mention), yet one time I am bested by 48% my score and the second time I beat my opponent by 120%? Where do you guys come up with the “score to beat”? I don’t care how it looks as my opponent builds an early lead or comes from behind late — all I care about is the final score I have to beat, something I assume is pretty much sussed out before the battle starts. Or are you guys taking actual scores from previous runs and saving them to look like a live opponent? Regardless, something is up with either the way you match opponents or something is up with the randomness in how much the opponent scores. I’ve been on both sides of it, both winning and losing plenty, but it is irksome to see such randomness in arena battles for a game where a lot of the destruction and card timing is already quite random.

So, in summary, can we get scoring tightened up a little so the Arena doesn’t feel so capricious?

Thanks,
sutekh137

[Aeshna]

I totally agree Sutekh 137. Tonight I played an opponent and I cleared 6 rooms with one bird in each room. On the 7th I needed two birds to clear the room and looked at the score and I was 1,500,000 behind. Go figure, because I can’t. Very rarely do I finish at the same time as my opponent either, I’ve usually two or three cards left and I’m playing ‘catch up.’

When I play the arena, I try not to look at the other players score as it is distracting and misleading.

We need a bird (throw) for bird comparison or a room for room.

[AndalayBay]

Guys, don’t forget that there’s no way to know how many rooms you are going to clear in comparison with your opponent. The game tries to “guess” based on how many birds you are using for each room. Rovio wants to ensure that your opponent uses up all their cards before you are finished so that you can see their final score, so they have the opponent use cards at a higher rate so they will be done before you are. You aren’t playing against an opponent live – you are playing against their play-through.

If Rovio did it room by room or card by card, then your opponent may end with a bunch of cards in their hand since they cleared more rooms than you. You never see the opponent’s shots, so there would be nothing to show in this situation, other than the fact that they probably beat you.

The only way for you to see your opponent’s shots would be to do a split-screen, which wouldn’t be feasible on most mobile devices since they don’t have the memory or a large enough screen.

[MVNLA2]

@sutekh137 — I have only encountered one obvious cheat, but unfortunately encountered him/her twice in a row. Both times the score was identical throughout the battle and above 9 million after my first bird. After that their score increase was more normal.
The battles are not computer generated. If you read through all the posts from @clovis in this and other threads, you will see that Rovio says that they record real battles of real people against rooms and pigs that are identical to yours. However, your opponents score does not increase at the rate of one fling or one room for one of your flings or rooms. Rovio claims this makes it more “exciting,” but a lot of us disagree.
If you don’t bother watching where your bird goes or how much damage it does (i.e. sacrifice a game) you can watch your opponents birds disappear off the screen, and new bird / spell cards come into the opponents hand. Thus in theory you should be able to figure out exactly how many cards (even which ones) your opponent has left, which would be a lot more useful than 3+. You would not, however, know which room they were on. In reality, at least for me, I mostly don’t even see the opponents cards because I am concentrating on my own flings and their outcomes. Not to mention that you have to activate most of the birds.

[MVNLA2]

@maiasatara — It is certainly true that the new AB 2 scoring system has pretty well destroyed the usefulness of the ABN leaderboards for most of us. I have stopped paying attention to the ABN leaderboard, since there is no way I am going to replay all the levels.
I don’t know the person in first place, but I do know @wrw01, as likely do you. I also know that all his birds are level 8, and that he is going back and replaying all the old levels to get new high scores. I don’t think you mentioned what level your birds are. However as an example, if your birds are all level 6 and you are playing against wrw01 with all level 8 birds, both with no spells, and you each get the same amount of destruction in each room, then wrw01 would get (7 birds x 8 damage multiplier/bird) = 56 damage multiplier to your (7 x 6) = 42 damage multiplier. So you would expect wrw01’s score to be 56/42 = 1.33 x yours. This neglects the fact that level 8 birds are supposed to do more damage than level 6, so you would expect wrw01 to have higher damage than you.
Some of the rest of your complaint is explained by the fact that your opponent in the arena may be a room or two and a bird or two ahead of you. Another Rovio decision most of us do not like.
I’ve stopped playing the arena to advance in leagues, and I’ve finished all the available levels, so I’m basically in a wait and see mode with AB 2.

[shaggietweet]

I’ve been an avid user until recently. I’ve enjoyed moving up. I’ve gotten better & better even winning a couple of tournaments and advancing to the Emerald League. And I’ve done it without using Spells, too. I’ve spent plenty of money — way more than I should! So, all in all, I really enjoyed AB2 arenas.

That is — until about 2 weeks ago when suddenly EVERYTHING got so hard.

Now? I win maybe 1 out of every 10-15 games. Makes NO SENSE. You don’t get to the Emerald league unless you’re damned good. I’ve powered up my birds too, to off-set the difficulty. Does not make a difference.

Now it’s NO FUN. I’m pissed off after nearly every game. And from the posts I’ve been reading here, I’m not the only one. Psychologically — you’ve got it rigged so that I’m beaten right out of the box with my opponent’s scores ALWAYS ahead of me at the top and by making it so difficult or IMPOSSIBLE with tons of those friggin’ tiny birds that defy killing. I can’t tell you how many times I should have had a clean sweep and then found one of those little suckers still alive.

I haven’t read every post or answer here but the ones I’ve read are not helpful or encouraging and you’re going to lose me and my money very soon. I don’t see anyone from Rovio taking responsibility for making AB2 too difficult. I don’t care if YOU like your analytics team, they are crap if they’re losing you players. Who would stay after hardly ever winning? There are plenty of other games to play that don’t piss me off because the company is too greedy to let people win on merit instead of because they BUY their wins…

[Sutekh137]

@mvnla2

I’d need to know a LOT more about what it means to use another player’s “play-through” to fight against. I don’t doubt that is what Rovio is doing, but it raises so many questions (apologies if these have been answered elsewhere):

— If we are battling live play-throughs, who are we playing against if we are the first player to start off a new Arena week? There would be nothing to play against for that first person. Do they use old play-throughs? Do they guess? Do they have some computer-based opponents that run through a few times just to get things started?
— What play-throughs of mine are they keeping? My best? My worst? All of them? From today? Last week? I’d love to know when I’m “on stage”, so to speak, when I am playing a battle that Rovio is going to keep on record (because I’d use every spell I had, for one thing).
— How is my opponent chosen? Why does it seem that when I face lower-star-level opponents that I almost always win? Is it just because they are worse in terms of skill and so don’t have a high-score play-through to beat me with?
— Deeper still, once an opponent is chosen, which of their play-throughs is chosen to fight against? Is it random? An average of several play-throughs? Weighted against how well I am doing on the leaderboard? Weighted against my last few play-throughs to make it competitive?

I don’t care about the score not increasing at the same rate or my opponent being a room or two ahead — I get why that should be the case if I am watching someone else’s “ghost” game and need to see the outcome before I am done. But this all seems pretty chaotic, with the randomness pointing to one thing — forcing people to spend gems to play more to keep things “competitive”. Because with the high-score leaderboards now being meaningless (even if people go back through with level 8 birds, you know that at some point Rovio is going to raise the highest bird level to print more money), what is left as a true, empirical mark of skill?

I suppose this is how head-to-head races work in Go!, and how Arena battles work in Epic, too. I’m just having a hard time understanding how it all works, and in the end I don’t see it as any fairer than facing a random, computer-estimated score. I guess I just need to get used to the new regime and this illusion of head-to-head matchups… The game is free, after all, and I can stop at any time. *smile*

Thanks,
sutekh137

[MVNLA2]

@stephanieerics — Welcome to the group of people who don’t like the new scoring system! I hope you do realize that ABN is not run by Rovio. If you want to get Rovio’s attention, @mention @Clovos or @bankler.

@sutekh137 — All good questions. I could give you my opinion, but really only Rovio can answer. I don’t think they have really answered any of your questions yet.

[Maiasatara]

To @stephanieerics – I could have written your post!
To @mvnla2 – hi! It’s not the player you mentioned that’s in first but it’s a well known and respected name for me here which is why I don’t doubt that person is reporting the exact score s/he is getting. I AM going back and replaying all my levels and just got to 122. I’m ranking between 5th and 8th currently. In terms of an EVERY LEVEL occurrence in an episode that is high for me.

As for the arena – most of the players I can tap on in my current Azure League Battle are very much equal to me. We are all within Star Level 22-26 and all have between 3-5 birds ranked as Azure with the remaining as gold. Most haven’t won a tournament yet but I was in 1st place last week (promoting me to Azure before all my birds have ranked up.) I am assuming THESE are the people against whom I battle. Otherwise why group like players that all have similar stats compete for first place within a group of 15 but then throw players with MUCH STRONGER BIRDS at us just to make us lose and frustrate us into spending coins? Look at that, I answered my own question.
This morning I played my two free entries then used gems to play six more. I won ONCE!!!! Sorry but no. It seems I can only win in my most hated style – the circus theme with the unkillable top-hat pig. Now even paying with gems doesn’t even help a person win. I have seen my birds progress through 5 strength levels now and there is NO WAY a person could be scoring double and triple my one bird score – even if they were all Diamond to my Azure. But again – why are you matching all Azures into a league then pitting them against all Diamond players? There’s that pesky money hungry issue rearing it’s ugly head again.

A BIZARRE player stat is on my new friends list (via Belinda Thompson’s group.) I took a screen shot for proof if the time comes but this player has 1 bird at level 1 and all others at level 2. Her Star Rank is 10 and she has never placed 1, 2 or 3 in a tournament. But her League shows as Azure. That’s physically impossible!!!!! Before the devil update a player had to rank up EVERY bird to a specific level in order to be placed in the corresponding league. Now all you have to do is come in 1st, 2nd or 3rd ONCE and you rank up. She has done NONE and hasn’t played enough (10 star?) to get remotely close. But no – it’s all working beautifully and fairly. Come ON @bankler, @clovos and @sutekh137! I invite you to read my previous, angrier posts in this thread, as well.

Instead of wishing everyone luck, as I usually sign off, I wish for everyone to keep their sanity! I sincerely hope we can keep both AB2 AND our sanity but it’s not looking good unless serious changes are implemented.

[Sutekh137]

@maiasatara

Not sure why I am mentioned along with clovos and bankler — I am not a Rovio person (plus I agree with all you are saying and have the same questions/frustrations).

Just wanted to clarify that. *smile*

Thanks,
sutekh137

[Maiasatara]

Sorry @sutekh137 – I read three names as though they belonged in a list in thr post above. I see now you’re one of us, lol.

I came back to clarify a few things asked earlier by @mvnla2:

The people matched to battle me are NOT in the list of 15 people in my Azure League. To group them with me implies that I am in direct competition with them but I am not.

The last two people I just battled had WEAKER birds than I and one had fewer Star levels, one had more. Despite my throwing Azure Level birds against his Gold he STILL BEAT ME – by triple after the first bird (same throw) and by double in the end. In the second game, not only did one tiny pig survive 3 almost direct hit birds, in my last room I threw 2 birds – a Red (Azure) and a Terrence (Azure) and neither one did ANY damage to the Eiffel Tower structure after DIRECT HITS. Rovio can kiss my tush today. (It’s trying all my patience to keep it PG in here when facing this level of frustration.)

[Maiasatara]

And after four straight losses against weaker opponents I get matched with an equal player who bought FOUR SPELLS for one match AND I WON!!!!!! If I can do that, it proves I should be winning EVERY match I play.

[Aeshna]

I’ve only won two out of the last ten games! Nearly won a third but drawing a blizzard cost me the game! Oh, how I laughed. :/

Yes, I know ‘they’ are going to fix receiving spell cards in the arena, just added to the ironicalness of it.

[AndalayBay]

@bankler, @clovos I would like to echo the request to bring back feather rewards in the arena. The measly 30 feather rewards I get periodically do nothing to improve my birds and I can’t control which bird gets the feathers.

I’m finding the base game very difficult to play as a result. The map levels have been reworked to be a lot more difficult than when the walkthrough videos were created. I think I need more powerful birds to finish the levels. I am trying to play through the Pigsyland levels and I now have to use spells to finish. Even with spells, I usually fail and have to wait to gain more lives. THIS IS NOT FUN.

I’ll hold on until the next update, but if this isn’t fixed soon, I’ll remove AB 2, again, and this time I won’t come back.

[MVNLA2]

@maiasatara — I’ve occasionally gotten opponents that are on my leaderboard, but most are not. I didn’t really expect them to be. I’ve played the AB Epic arena, and the opponents are generally not on your board, and @sutekh137 — in Epic you are fighting computer-generated battles with birds that your opponent (most or maybe now all times a real person).

[Aeshna]

@andalaybay
Hope this helps. I’ve completed all levels to three stars, all birds now lvl.6 I achieved this not by using spell cards through the base game but by buying three extra cards on last room only, for 60 gems. I save my gems up for this purpose and nothing else. But I need to get to the last room first, and only if I think I can clear that room with what birds I have played in the final room (+ 3 extra birds). I won’t buy three cards earlier than that.

Agree with you over feather rewards in arena. One of the messages on AB2 screen is ‘play the arena for feathers’ obviously that should have been removed at last update.

And as for the rewards in the arena now, 2 gems for 7th place…… I’d best not comment on that!

[Brandon Davis]

Currently in Amethyst league. Was in 3rd for a few days, all of a sudden the people in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd have SHOT up big time. Obviously this favors even more to giving money, no way they went up a few hundred stars by playing twice every three hours…

Pretty annoying. May drop AB2.

[AndalayBay]

@aeshna, that basically confirms my thoughts. My birds are only level 3 and 4. I’m stuck with two level 3 birds that just aren’t getting feathers. Currently I’m in the gold league, but I’ll probably advance if I keep playing.

I have so many times where red doesn’t topple a tower, or there’s one stupid tiny pig that I can’t reach or just won’t pop. I run out of birds long before I get to the last room. It’s really depressing when I’ve got a red gift and even spending the 60 gems doesn’t clear the level. I have lost so many red gifts. I’ve lost friend gifts too. I don’t have many gems, although I do have friends sending me gifts. Thanks guys!

[Aeshna]

@andalaybay – Only further advice I can give you is to farm for red and blue boxes on level 9 and/or 13, if you aren’t already.

The feeling that birds are ineffective never goes away ;) Despite my birds being level 6, red doesn’t topple every tower as well. Seemingly more so in the arena! But maybe that’s just me.

And like I said, only ever use gems in last room, I think it’s pointless before hand, and it’ll cost 80 gems to try again.

The linear progression of the game frustrates as well. You can only play level 137 after defeating level 136. It would be better if you could play in any order the levels in a set stage, for example 1-15 in New Pork City, play 14 before 13, but obviously all 15 have to be completed before moving on to next set.

[AndalayBay]

@aeshna, yeah I do that. I rarely get gifts from those levels. I do sometimes, but it takes a long time.

I agree with you 100%. If we could jump around, that would really relieve the frustration. Hammering at one level over and over doesn’t help unless you hit it lucky. I finally got through level 270 when I got a Mighty Eagle after watching a video. There would have been no way I could complete the level without it. I do feel that the game takes pity on me sometimes. I just wish it happened more often. LOL

[MVNLA2]

@andalaybay — The key to farming level 9 or 13 is to only open the first room to see if there is a gift. If not exit immediately and replay. If you exit before flinging a bird, you will not lose a life. A while ago when we were keeping statistics, level 9 was the best 2-room level for blue gifts, but also fairly good for red. You should get a gift in the first room of level 9 about every 10 or 11 tries. Of course, since it is statistics, you can get very long runs without gifts, but it’s still the best I know of.

[AndalayBay]

@mvnla2, I’ve actually gotten a red gift from the second room on level 9 more often than the first. :P I haven’t kept accurate statistics, but I’ve gotten gifts from the second room often enough that I just replay the level. It’s only two rooms, so it doesn’t hurt to finish the level. I don’t get gifts from level 13 as often as 9.

I’ve got a list of all the levels in which I’ve found a red gift. Do you think it’s worth posting it?

[MVNLA2]

@andalaybay — I don’t think there are enough statistics on other levels on which you might get a red gift to make it worthwhile. The nice thing about the first few levels is that they are only 2 rooms, so there is not much chance that you will lose a life.

[kedik22]

Hi.
I have 28 stars, completed level 395 and am in the Diamond league.
Only one third place in the arena.
After playing the arena this week (and the ones before that) and reading all posts, y have come to one factual conclusion:
Money and or gems (and lots of them) are needed to place well in tournaments.
It si not a matter of skill, perseverance, time or a little bit of luck, as it should be.
So sad it is all about the money, it takes the excitement and competitiveness away.
It is not fun anymore.
Not to mention all other complications!

On a different note, there has been cheating and or glitching in the arena mentioned in this forum.
Specifically about one or two ways to be win in the arena, which has not been explained.
Thank you for that.
But why has the issue not been addressed by Rovio?

Kind regards.

[Rovio_Bankler]

I’ll try to answer some of the questions (sorry that I can’t adress everything):

“Her Star Rank is 10 and she has never placed 1, 2 or 3 in a tournament. But her League shows as Azure.”
– Yes, we have seen this. She’s not in the Azure league. It shows the wrong arena.

“Despite my birds being level 6, red doesn’t topple every tower as well”
– Birds don’t become more effective against buildings when they level up. They only generate more score and move the destructometer faster.

“why are you matching all Azures into a league then pitting them against all Diamond players?”
– When this happens, it’s not intentional. I’m really sorry for this. We’ve had problems with the matchmaking and we are working on improving it. We want you to meet players with approximately equal bird levels. Nobody likes an unfair fight.

“who are we playing against if we are the first player to start off a new Arena week? […] Do they use old play-throughs?”
– Yes, you can meet an entry from the previous week. As it works now, you’ll only ever meet entries no older than 24 hours.

“What play-throughs of mine are they keeping? […] I’d love to know when I’m ‘on stage’. ”
– You’re always on the stage. :) We record every single battle you do.

“How is my opponent chosen?”
– Mainly, we try to match you against an opponent with an approximately same leveled deck. We’re working on making this work better than it currently does.

“Deeper still, once an opponent is chosen, which of their play-throughs is chosen to fight against?”
– At the moment, your latest entry.