The State of Valiant Banner Set

[JJAtelier]

Hey guys!

So a good number of you players here are no strangers to arena and with the uprising of the Valiant Banner Set. Currently, we’re pretty much at a dead end when it comes to diversity or fair competition. Here’s my take on the situation. Comments/Feedback are much appreciated!

Topic

[Bubbley]

@vinnieb00 I play with the Blazing Eye and a Rage Sheild virtually every opponent has the Valiant set. The more rapid rage generation conferred by the banner significantly helps me win. Time jump is a problem and I avoid it if it’s used by a power team until I have met my objectives.

I don’t understand the technical side of your presentation but I do know that it is boring to play the same banner over and over again. Furthermore the opportunity to play with different bird combinations once reaching diamond league has gone. It is not fun anymore.

What happens when both players have the Valiant set? Is it just a slug fest and the winner won the toss? If that’s what the future holds I certainly will not continue to play the Arena.

[Anonymous]

I think Valiant’s OP-ness is somewhat overstated. Don’t get me wrong: When I do finally get the half of it that I’m currently missing, I expect to use it almost 100% of the time! But my point is that it’s very beatable if you tailor your own team properly, because the AI that controls your opponent is pretty predictable.

[Anonymous]

That being said, I would like if they toned it down in one of the ways you suggested, so there’s more variation in pvp.

[Pointless]

@bubbley you are somewhat correct regarding battles of Valiant vs Valiant, it is generally a quick battle and one that I find is 3-starred if one wins the toss and 2-starred if it goes the other way. The fact that most (myself included) use Power teams with the Valiant also has a lot to do with it.
Another point you have touched on there is also worth repeating. Valiant teams are actually fairly easy to beat, especially using Valiant, as we all know the AI tendencies controlling the enemy.

[JJAtelier]

@bubbley

Going into technical depth might have spelled a longer video but I’ll do my best to summarise my presentation in writing.

To reiterate my first problem, regarding the meta coming to a halt and power creeping. In order for the meta to shift away from everyone using this set. A set just as good or better has to come out in order to compete with it. Causing the rest of the other sets to be somewhat obsolete or behind the curve, though I doubt it will differ too much seeing as the other sets have pretty dope effects too.

The Valiant Set, hands down is above the power curve (with no restraints or downsides). The same can be said for the other banner sets but the problem is that there’s no real tangible counter to this specific set. Apart from maybe getting a lucky roll with the coin or a resurrection/time jump proc. You’ll always feel like you’re playing from behind even if you go first. The battle slowly snowballs out of control if you let teams with valiant live too long.

It gets even more out of control when variance comes into play with the aforementioned emblems being the worst offenders. As a player on the receiving end, it’s frustrating and unfun to play against. Unless players have the same equipment in their arsenal, we’re stuck in a stagnant meta which I referred to as literally “brain dead”. Everyone just roll their gold coins, pick up valiant and attack the enemies banner with impunity since your birds will be back up in no time.

The new Chuck set is kind of a band aid with the whole RNG aspect implemented. Whether or not this causes players to stray away from the set, I currently have no clue. Nice to see Rovio at least trying to come up with a solution.

Hopefully this makes a bit more sense.

[JJAtelier]

@poptimus

What kind of tailored team do you have in mind?

@bubbley

The rapid rage generation set/antirage emblem sounds like a viable strat, unfortunately I’m missing a piece of it. Adding Matilda and her Perfect Balance set would make for some really sick rage inducing victories.

[Anonymous]

@vinnieb00
My go to team is witch (with the honey set) and rogues (i use the artillery set, but it doesn’t matter for him. Would use the Save Me! Set if i had it). Then I’ll usually use either thunderbird (generally with mana shell set) or cap’n (finisher set, but would use scissors if i had it) depending on opponent.
It’s pretty easy to control the battle well enough to earn a three star victory with these combos, with two exceptions: Playing against a weakness emblem, and playing against a chuck with a mana set. playing against tricksters, lightning bird, and/or cap’n is a little annoying, but usually not insurmountable. Certainly, all of these issues are exacerbated by a valiant set (esp with resurrection!), but that’s true of any weakness of any strategy, right?

[JJAtelier]

@poptimus

Every strategy should definitely have a weakness, but with the Valiant set, that weakness is completely nebulous. The lingering dread of having to prepare enough health to fight against the reviving opposition can be daunting since you’ll know the cycle will inevitably repeat itself.

The strat you mentioned sounds reasonable in theory, in practise however it all seems relative as you mentioned, to what the opposing team has for their banner emblem and team composition. What banner set do you use?

I’ve had some success toppling Valiant set owners while lacking my own. Despite the nerfs, Blessed Blanket has always been my go to. In addition I’ve always placed a big focus on Single Target + AoE burst which I feel is even more relevant if I ever plan on getting ahead vs a Valiant team. For this, I use Paladin with Dragon Breath, Wizard with Twin Lightning and Spies with BEEP sets. Increasing the odds of the already AoE centric team with more splash dmg modifications has led to some swift victories but that’s all highly reliant on probability otherwise.

[Jadedbacon]

@vinnieb00 I would argue that the new Chuck set is actually worst for the meta and makes Valiant even more powerful. I believe (which I think most people here agree) that the set is intended to reset resurrection timers in arena (on top of resetting charged attacks in PVE).

The problem is the wording makes it seem that if it procs, all enemies are going to be reset and because of that, non-valiant teams will suffer more than valiant teams will. If you fight a non-valiant set and get lucky enough, you could keep the enemy team KOed for the entire match! Since they have 3 turns to come back instead of 2, you increase the likelihood that the proc will happen when they’re knocked down, resetting them back to 3 turns. If it happens on their 2nd turn of being knocked out, congratulations! You just got 5 turns of uninterrupted attacks against their banner.

Hopefully I’m wrong on this one, otherwise we’re going to see even less diversity which will lead to more stagnation in play and (imho) a less interesting game.

[Bubbley]

@vinnieb00 I understand what you are saying. It is miserable if you don’t have a way of combating Valiant. Even though I do it is still not fun.

It seems that everyone who wants to continue to play will get a Valiant set either by spending LC or a fortunate free roll. I have the tapestry from such a roll. It still will be no fun to play. As @pointless has explained the battles are short brutal predictable wins. Everyone likes to win but that just becomes monotonous and extremely boring.

So when the next season begins those who have the most time will be able to advance easily since no Valiant holder seems to lose any banners.

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 I am somewhat surprised you are having success with that team vs Valiant. My go to prior to acquiring Valiant (which I was extremely lucky to get both pieces with three 5x rolls in last month’s 5x Rainbow) was also Blessed, but found that Reborn was a necessity for Chuck, as he would survive the first round if I lost the toss. Don’t you find that using Twin Lightning with him (not to mention BEEP with Blues), although brutal if you win the toss, leaves you without Chuck (and probably Blues) for three turns?

@bubbley you hit the nail on the head there…with Valiant it is about who has the time/inclination to win, not necessarily a good team strategy (although to be fair, I guess this could also have been said prior to Valiant in many ways). I have “discovered” a team that doesn’t lose. Period. Not bragging or anything, as I think most of you can figure out what Valiant is missing and what birds can offer that. These are not fun battles, however, so I only use this combination if I need to grind points or fulfill some objectives, but others with time could easily use this team and win all day. Some of us are seeing some pretty high scores in Diamond recently (although there are the ever-present cheaters), and I wonder if this is what is being done.

[Jamairoqui]

The new epic set for Chuck (Sonic something or other) is clearly the “Valiant Killer.” It resets the charge bar for all birds, even the ones that are knocked out. My hunch is that it will reset all the knocked out birds back to zero, so they have to wait two more cycles to revive. That will restore some parity to the non-Valiant banner sets *if* the user has the new Chuck Epic set.

It’s kind of clever by Rovio. Release a banner set that is untouchable for the most part, then release an epic set that deals with the untouchable feature of the banner set (fast revive cycle time), so you have to get the banner set *and* the epic set.

[Suikyo]

The new Chuck set has only 25% to reset the bar. Possibly like even the 30% chance time jump, you may lose the battle before it works. It can also be like the 10% chance revival when computer-controlled teams are using: the enemy’s birds got revived like immortal.

I think I don’t like this new set because my strategy is, keep knocking out enemy’s birds every turn to limit the damage the enemy teams can cause in each turn.

[Bubbley]

@pointless there are always some players who have time and are addicted to play and perhaps the novelty of having a set up that can’t lose is driving them at the moment.

Yes the ever present cheaters. I have a very active league except for one player who is at zero. I have encountered him in a previous league. If he behaves in the same way he will alter his score an hour or so before the end of the week. It’s a mentality I don’t understand. He is clearly not playing so what is his achievement?

[Bubbley]

@jamairoqui I have seen 2 of those sets today both wielded by chuck supported by a Valiant banner.

[Pointless]

@bubbley did you have Chuck’s new set proc? I had one battle today against an opponent with this set and the only time I had one of my bird’s KOd, it worked and reset the counter to zero (accompanied by a little circle animation). Not that I am at all suggesting from one battle that this % chance is buggy, I have just seen it far too many times recently in new sets to wonder if it’s accurate.

btw I encountered an opponent also using Blazing Eye today…thought you were the last one out there :P

[JJAtelier]

@pointless My strat is generally all about combining heavy offensive tools and having some semblance of sustain with Spies as the Sweet bonus is guaranteed to let Glee top up any health lost from assailant attacks or Vengeful proc. Paladin is also boss for protection.

The Save Me sets sound good in theory but then I’m throwing alot of power away for transient health advantage as the goal is really to kill Valiant teams asap.

As I currently lack the offensive banners at Max lvl (sinister, blazing, mighty, angry, valiant) theres not much choice for me. The Frozen set could potentially be good with the amount of AoE equipped. Stunning a bird possibly every turn sounds much more effective than simply knocking them out. Though that amount of variance added to the comp could be an all-eggs-in-one-basket recipe for disappointment.

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 in my experience you can’t rely on pure heavy hitters while using Blessed. Forget Glee, as it really is useless in PvP, and really reconsider Blues altogether with that banner set.
My go to (prior to Valiant) was Paladin/DragonBreath, Wizard/Reborn and SeaDog/Scissors with Time Jump. Reborn (most of the time) kept Chuck alive if I lost the toss. I agree Paladin is almost a must due to the enhanced healing and protection. SeaDog is actually a good meat shield as he keeps attacks off the more useful Red while taking a beating due to high HP. Linked to Red with TJ proc can prove very damaging while significantly healing at the same time.
Granted, this was mostly before Valiant and is less effective now, although still competitive with high level/enchanted gear. I would, given the same situation now, seriously consider subing Witch/Sweet for SeaDog, taking the hit on damage dealt to keep the banner up until Red and Chuck can finish the job.

[JJAtelier]

@pointless

Definitely. Blessed Set is anti synergy if you plan on being the aggressor, though I believe with my composition, it forms a mid-range style of play where I can afford to be both aggressor and defender where the situation sees fit.

I don’t think Glee is completely useless in PvP seeing as Twin Lightning begs for Glee to be casted, but in the case against Valiant I likely should substitute Blues or BEEP for something with a bit more beef. As you mentioned, Sea Dog or Witch have potential though they’re currently on the lower end of my mastery spectrum.

I am not a big fan of Time Jump. Before Valiant was released, TJ was probably the bane of arena’s existence until recently I had an enemy Skulkers with Artillery deal;

3K —> Time Jump —> 5K damage for over 8K damage to my banner to seal the game.

And yes… that team had Valiant also.

[Bubbley]

@pointless in one battle yes. I lost. It is likely to cause a problem for me. Sigh! Rovio launched this idea during the “Sonic” event, I think, so I guess we should have expected it.

Nice to know there are a few of us left. I’m pretty sure that when everyone has Valiant Rovio will launch some new ones.

[Bubbley]

@vinnieb00 I used a Blessed set early in the Arena game. I found Paladin, Seadog, Lightening bird a good combination. That you can’t control where Paladin will strike is a disadvantage but his additional healing coupled with the extra strikes from Seadog also means the rage chilli fills more quickly.

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 the more I play Arena (and especially since acquiring Valiant), the more I find the PvP element differs significantly from PvE strategy in terms of secondary abilities. These are, in my experience, more often than not a waste of a turn. I smile to myself when the enemy AI “wastes” a bird by buffing, as often occurs, (Glee included) as it leaves my team intact to wreak havoc, and in essence get a free turn (above and beyond any Time Jump proc).

With your described team in particular, I see Glee as wasteful, even just before feeding Chuck/Twin Lightning the chili. Yes, the healing number might look impressive, but you are using the two birds with the lowest health and you can’t obviously heal above maximum (with that trio). This leaves Chuck and Blues, although fully healthy, vulnerable and probably KO’d on the enemy’s counter. This is assuming you are using Glee on your team as opposed to your banner, but if the latter is the case, there are much better ways for that to be accomplished (read: Witch).

[JJAtelier]

@pointless

I won’t disagree. It’s very true alot of the secondary ability mechanics are ineffective in Arena as its all about tempo plays that affect the state of the field. And its become more apparent with Valiant around since you don’t have time to just sit back and buff your birds.

However, I think we need to dissect the Chuck/Twin Lightning chilli a bit deeper. The example we’re currently playing off is when we’re going first, presumably with the Golden Chilli (correct me if you meant it in another context). Yet, if we go second and it just so happens that Chuck/Blues get knocked out on the same turn and both revive together with the chilli still intact. Then the long term heal has great value since chances are your banner has already lost a chunk of hitpoints.

If going first, then yes, Glee is super wasteful. I’ve never found a good opportunity to use it whenever I win the coin flip. And the Witch’s Giant Growth is definitely the better proactive play at any stage in the game. The issue I have with Witch or just Matilda in general is that she lacks any tools to deal AoE. Which is why in some cases, Spies will have that slight edge if you want to clear the field or solidify a healthy field state provided you have the right synergy. It’s all about what strengths/weakness you’re giving up when considering which one to sub out.

Plus Paladin is always there to shield at least one of your team-mates provided we’re still talking in the context of going first. In the current meta though, I’d certainly say Witch is better than Spies since the value is instant with Giant Growth. Even then, I can still see Spies having some clutch uses.

[Pointless]

@vinnieb00 I am somewhat lost here perhaps. If you lose the toss and thereby lose Chuck/Blues in your stated config, then there won’t be a Glee to heal upon reviving and dealing damage. I maintain that this is a wasted turn in PvP (and really also in PvE unless a wave clear is imminent).
Obviously on winning said toss, Glee is irrelevant and you are free to mete due punishment with Chuck and Blues. This is, however, a huge gamble only amplified against Valiant opponents. I doubt there is repeatable recovery when things don’t go your way. When I used Blessed (and really any set prior to Valiant, believe me I tried them all) it quickly became apparent that Reborn was a must, at the expense of TL AoE, simply to be competitive. I would think that this is even more the case facing Valiant.
The reward simply doesn’t correlate with the risk. Use Witch not primarily as an offensive participant (although even with Sweet she does have that side funnily enough), but rather as a way to keep your banner healthy.

[Jadedbacon]

Enjoying the discussion so far. I’ve been using Spies in arena since pretty much the beginning. I only used Glee on a turn when 2-3 enemy birds would be reviving on their following turn. I’d either try to heal up my banner a little more (obsolete now with Witch) or I’d use it on Chuck/Blues to force the enemy to waste an extra attack to take them down.

Since Valiant/Witch though, I rarely use Glee now as slugging it out every turn works out much better/faster.

Still say this new set will make Valiant even more powerful. Using a non-valiant banner and being hit by the Sonic effect will be more detrimental as you’ll be reset to 3 turns instead of 2. You’ll want your birds to be KOed for the smallest amount of turns possible to lower the chance that they get reset.